Fire Pro Discussion!

[gbomber]

@ OG

well, when it comes to logic, the matchsimming component is important to me, because I don't know how it works at all, and in that HALF SECOND it takes to load up the match-up screen, my hours/months/years worth of moveset/logic/attribute tweaking is combined with the other edit's, and made into a match.

is my logic even fucking neccesary? that's my question. we've all seen our edits do that 2% move eight times in one match, now and then. mathematically, we know it's possible to just keep rolling 99 or 100 on a hundred sided die, but, with all the shit I've rolled on in World of Warcraft? it's not fucking likely.

I guess that's the problem with a random probability system. it's the best way we can simulate realism in artificial AI - some baseball game that came out actually breaks the pitcher's use of different pitches into their real-life percentages - but randomness is not neccesarily realistic.

for example, to make Bret Hart, you'd want him to do the x moves of doom, so you'd turn the logic up on them. however, randomness says the higher the logic, the higher the chance he'll just SPAM those x number of moves. you can't assure that he only hits the moves while working up to the sharpshooter, as Bret did. similarily, if Flair's falling 'taunt' was in the game, you'd never be able to program him to use it at the psychologically correct time; it'd always seem like a random event.

it's like gathering all the materials up for a building, setting up the blueprints, getting the zoning and all that shit approved, and then letting someone else manage the construction. I don't know if the end result is my fuck up, or the game's random shit.

and that shit with the Lana match - the first thought that hit my mind was, "wow, I wish her ground move hadn't had that effect." so, part of me wants to change the move just so that my CPU logic will have an easier time with whatever spots it has set up beforehand - if that's even how it works. that's the wacky part.

I'm considering changing a move based on my assumption that the system will fail me again, based on an assumption about how the match simming system works. and we don't KNOW...

sometimes, I describe this stuff, and it feels like I'm talking quantum physics. I'm here, blabbering about assumptions in a system no one's ever peeked into. it's surreal.

@moto

Does it select from a huge list of possible matches where every second is already calculated?

to be honest, something like this seems most likely. if not the entire match, then a general match flow. move for move seems out of the question, due to little errors like my earlier Lana example - and you've also seen, I'm sure, an edit just stand in place while the other walks up and strikes them. that always odds me out - there's no logic setting for "stand in place", there's circle and retreat. seems like a snafu in the game, to me.

how's this for theorizing? the higher your edit's entertainment - or even their charisma and star rating - the better chance you have of getting an 'epic match' quality flow in your match. two guys at 100/0 ent and A/A for the charisma and rating might always be having awesome matches. I really wanna test this shit. >.<

lolz at theorizing at totally untested territory.

FPZ g's first match was against Twinky McLanahan(Beefed up Empyrean Halo using Twinky), and that match went fifty one minutes after starting with a weak grapple elbow from Twinky, g replied with a short elbow combo from med grapple, and Twinky hits the large damage spinning rock bottom thing, and this was at less then 45 seconds into the match. the match was so good, I noted it into a notebook as I watched.

it was suprising, because g is honestly made as an upper mid-carder, and Wild's Twinky is probably one of the best top-carder edits around. g's an annoyance, and I expected a squash each time.

they don't have those matches all the time, but g and Twinky break twenty minutes with ease, and they both have high ent and decent scores in cha/star rating - well, I'm PRETTY sure Twinky does, because Joe and me are like THAT on edits, most times.

@twinky

big guy with a pinning finisher is actually the cornerstone of any decent winning machine. my superdude edit that I made back in the day... he was to prove a point, which was that I could make a winning machine within C-CWA rules.

in a 64 man league made up of then C-CWA/M-DWF stars and some puro guys, he lost only to Andre, but beat him in a few single matches afterwards.

so yeah, I call shenanigans on the old Dante =P

[Steve]

Hey, at least he was S sized so it got reversed a lot...

*hides*

EDIT: And, back in those days, I took Near Death to be quite literal. So I thought once it reached that point, you'd win with pretty much whatever you hit next. So I only set it that high because I wanted him to win with it... if I'd have known you could get to the large damage setting in the first 5 minutes, it'd have probably been different. Maybe... 24%.

[Joe Snack Road]

21stcenturysteve said:

And, back in those days, I took Near Death to be quite literal. So I thought once it reached that point, you'd win with pretty much whatever you hit next. So I only set it that high because I wanted him to win with it... if I'd have known you could get to the large damage setting in the first 5 minutes, it'd have probably been different. Maybe... 24%. :P

I have to agree on this one - once upon a time was 15% was considered the standard for finishing percentage for a front grapple move at Near Death.

An assumption I had about how move logic worked was that it was determined by scenario.

Like, if twenty minutes into a match, g gets a front grapple on Twinky it "rolls the 100 sided dice" to see what move gets chosen, with moves having MORE logic percentage (the 12% elbow strike, in example) getting more play than moves with less (the 1% Tiger Driver '91 - g doesn't have this, but, an example)...

As in... well, you've got the 100 sided dice, but 12 of those numbers are set aside JUST for the elbow strike. Maybe 20 will be set for the irish whip. And should the theoretical dice land on these certain numbers, that's the move that'd be performed.

That's how I understood things to work, and maybe if that's the way it did, things would be a little easier to understand in terms of how to make edits act a little more like real life wrestlers.

g said:

sometimes, I describe this stuff, and it feels like I'm talking quantum physics. I'm here, blabbering about assumptions in a system no one's ever peeked into. it's surreal.

If anything, we're making shit up based on what we're observing. FUCK, we're logic scientists up in this mother.

[orochigeese]

admin said:

An assumption I had about how move logic worked was that it was determined by scenario. Like, if twenty minutes into a match, g gets a front grapple on Twinky it "rolls the 100 sided dice" to see what move gets chosen, with moves having MORE logic percentage (the 12% elbow strike, in example) getting more play than moves with less (the 1% Tiger Driver '91 - g doesn't have this, but, an example)...

As in... well, you've got the 100 sided dice, but 12 of those numbers are set aside JUST for the elbow strike. Maybe 20 will be set for the irish whip. And should the theoretical dice land on these certain numbers, that's the move that'd be performed.

That's how I understood things to work, and maybe if that's the way it did, things would be a little easier to understand in terms of how to make edits act a little more like real life wrestlers.

If anything, we're making shit up based on what we're observing. FUCK, we're logic scientists up in this mother.

So does that make ME "Professor Chaos!"




But seriously, I'm glad you posted your theories about the 100 sided die. I've always been somewhat confused about how cpu logic is decided. It might stem from a forgetfullness from high school probability studies (where I spent my time ogling) but I really have no idea how Fire Pro "favors" a 15% move over a 1% move. I like the 100 sided die theory cause at least that makes SENSE to me. I can visualize how its done from a practical standpoint. Much better then abstract % ideas.

But who knows with probability. As g said, we've all seen the 2% moves happen like 4 times in match. We can all do our best setting logic but sometimes the games just isn't having our best efforts.

[Joe Snack Road]

orochigeese said:

But seriously, I'm glad you posted your theories about the 100 sided die. I've always been somewhat confused about how cpu logic is decided. It might stem from a forgetfullness from high school probability studies (where I spent my time ogling) but I really have no idea how Fire Pro "favors" a 15% move over a 1% move. I like the 100 sided die theory cause at least that makes SENSE to me. I can visualize how its done from a practical standpoint. Much better then abstract % ideas.

But who knows with probability. As g said, we've all seen the 2% moves happen like 4 times in match. We can all do our best setting logic but sometimes the games just isn't having our best efforts.

Normally, my theories are best thrown away, but in this one, I think I have some grounds in truth...

Once in a while, I see an edit spaz out - the opponent will either be standing dazed or laying on the ground, and this makes me think my "100 sided dice" idea isn't entirely BS, because its like the edit is having problems deciding what to do. I can't really think of how else to describe it but like that.

[orochigeese]

Yeah, i know those moments all too well. My two "favorite" examples:

1) Edit irish-whips opponent and either a) runs into the opponent doing nothing, or worse b) STANDS THERE LIKE AN IDIOT DOING NOTHING! I'm assuming he is just contemplating his place in the Fire Pro universe, or maybe there are backstage politics involved and he refuses to put on a good match.

2) Edit is involved in a stand-up striking battle and then out of nowhere just decides to *stop doing anything* until other edit walks over and kicks it in the face to somewhat comical results.

There are more but those are the two most frustrating ones. I also find that an edit will do one of the above when they are already losing a match, hence participating in their own squash due to incompetence. This is usually around the point that I'm throwing my shoe (no, im not Konnan) at the TV screaming....or worse, at my computer cause Im expecting that wrestler to win a video match.

But yeah, i like the "100 sided die" theory as a reason that wrestlers get tied up in deciding a strategy. Some of them just might not "roll the die" fast enough. Jenny McLanahan rarely has this problem cause she is an expert at rolling! Same with Kata Mary

[Joe Snack Road]

Bumping for discussion...

Ukemi!

For the longest time, I've just mirrored the in-game standards for Ukemi logic, but I want to try and expand, play with it a bit and develop something WORKABLE with it. Create a realistic ideal of how a character wrestles.

I mean...

Looking at Twinky, he's spent a lot of time taking abuse all match, then rallying back at the end - even now, he's kind of just taking it throughout the whole match and SHOCK! rallying back at the end, but how do I set up the logic to do that? Hrm...

Any theories?

[Jason Blackhart]

Ukemi is just how often you allow the opponent to use their attack (successfully), so a higher value would result in that character taking more abuse, since they wouldn't even try to counter as often (or not at all if you put it 100%).

I don't know exactly what percentages would be good for your example, but you'd want to have it higher at small and medium damage (so he won't counter much), then lower when he reaches large damage (to allow a greater "rally" opportunity). As you've likely seen, the default wrestlers basically do follow this pattern (with most at 20/25/15 or 20/30/10), but you could make the first two much higher, and maybe the LD value even lower (something like 50/100/0). Unfortunately, I haven't gotten to mess with FPR enough to if it'd make the edit either cheap or jobberific, so just experiment until you can find a good balance.

Of course that also works the other way, if you want an edit to be tougher early, but once they get worn down, they really get worn down, then have low values at SD/MD (so they counter more often) and a high value at LD (where they just eat the opponent's offense once they get hurt).

[Smacked Ass]

Is "Ukemi" a new logic parameter? I've barely touched FPR compared to FPD/FPA/FP2/FPZ, so on the occasion that I turn the game on (a rare occurrence), I still find new moves, so I'm really unfamiliar with FPR's logic set-up (like the move chains which seem really cool but confound me entirely).

[Jason Blackhart]

Yeah, it's a new logic setting which corresponds to an also-new technique you can use during a match when controlling the character. If you hold the breathe trigger (it's been so long since I've played, I forget which button it is) you disable your countering ability, which can be useful for "working" a match, by allowing the opponent to use their attacks. The logic parameter is just how often the CPU will use this technique and refrain from using the auto-counters.

[Smacked Ass]

Man, Spike has really refined this shit over the years. They could have rode on what they had initially for all of these years, but they seem to keep pushing things. What a concept...

Thanks JB!

PS: I miss the spinning mullet-head (didn't you have a Naniwa one once before, too?).

[Joe Snack Road]

jb said:

Ukemi is just how often you allow the opponent to use their attack (successfully), so a higher value would result in that character taking more abuse, since they wouldn't even try to counter as often (or not at all if you put it 100%).

I don't know exactly what percentages would be good for your example, but you'd want to have it higher at small and medium damage (so he won't counter much), then lower when he reaches large damage (to allow a greater "rally" opportunity). As you've likely seen, the default wrestlers basically do follow this pattern (with most at 20/25/15 or 20/30/10), but you could make the first two much higher, and maybe the LD value even lower (something like 50/100/0). Unfortunately, I haven't gotten to mess with FPR enough to if it'd make the edit either cheap or jobberific, so just experiment until you can find a good balance.

Of course that also works the other way, if you want an edit to be tougher early, but once they get worn down, they really get worn down, then have low values at SD/MD (so they counter more often) and a high value at LD (where they just eat the opponent's offense once they get hurt).

I think I get what you're saying, but let me throw out an example to try and see if I understand it...

Lets say I take Taco Mask, and want him to start out somewhat evenly...

I'd set him to a fairly even counter rate in the first set, the "Low Damage" portion.

If I wanted him to be the FACE IN PERIL CON CARNE about the mid match...

I'd set him to countering pretty much not at all in the "Mid Damage" portion.

And then rally back to the end of the match as the fan favorite towards the end of the match, countering into flash pins to try and score the victory...

I'd make him counter dang near all the time then.

Or, to another example:

Power Guy starts straight out strong, 'coz Power Guy is big, and has Power/Power for his offense/defense settings.

So, to replicate this, it'd be Power Guy dominating throughout the early match, then slowly petering out through the match, getting sloppy and making the kinds of mistakes heels do when they're in the late match portion and start getting all "OOOH, LOOKATME! I'm DA BAD GUY!"

I've just replicated the in-game Ukemi settings, but I could follow other peoples' examples and try and make my wrestlers a little more... uhm... PERSONALITY FULL I guess would be the way to put it.

I've decided I'm not happy with the current build of some of my nstay characters, and I'm even less happy with some of the "developing youngsters" with McPro - So, I'm really looking at how to play with this sort of thing instead of taking my "I don't understand, so I'm not screwing with it." logic.

[motosada]

Yanno what I find amazing? Most of us have been futzin' with Fire Pro for about five years. Some of us for far longer, some of us for not as long, yet there's still not a damn one of us that's close to figuring out what makes it work. It's all just luck and tireless testing and maybe a random bit of insanity.

And yet we can all still make a really decent-looking edit, that just doesn't deliver a bit at all in-ring. It's very annoying. Yes, Gene Starr, I'm talking about you. Bastard.

[Deibu-sama]

I used Ukemi to make Martin awesome.

Like, at the start of the match he has ZERO! Yes, zero Ukemi. Then at medium it heads up to a normal value, then at near death where he gets a bit cocky with lax covers(c'mon, foot on chest?) gets a bit tired, lazy even. It works awesomely, too. As before this nice Ukemi thing, I could either give Martin his MONSTAR~! effect and he would keel people, or lower his serious time something cronic and end up with a L-size pussy who'd put on a halfway decent match. Now he starts of MONSTAR OMFG TEH BORCK! then starts to give the guy a chance later on.

Hell, I mean like, he puts on a good match with even Kazuki and Stuart despite being a G-size manbeast.

[orochigeese]

What I'd love to see in future Fire Pro games would be segmented personality logic. Meaning that there would be 3 stages in the match for entertainment, serious, and flexibility just as there are 3 stages for most grapples and ukemi. Cause that would be a great way to simulate a wrestler getting "sloppy" later on in the match wheras now we can just rely on ukemi and specific move logic.

I'm not sure how ukemi can be used alone to simulate sloppyness, but i know it can be used for overall control over the match. I would also like to try to refine some of my wrestlers who i feel don't have any momentum changes in their match (or small, incidental ones). Guys who work pretty well in the ring in a "sport" sense but don't carry their character's psychology as well in the ring.

And since we are on the topic here of logic, can someone clarify for me which is the setting that allows a wrestler to win grapples more often. Last I heard it was serious time but I really would just like that confirmed cause I feel like entertainment time also factors in.